Posts by Disillusioned JW

15

True Religion vs. False Religion and James 1:27

by Ultimate Reality in

something that opened my eyes as i was re-examining "the truth" was the verse at james 1:27. in the new world translation the greek word in this verse, threskeia, is translated worship, which is fine except that it hides a more important meaning.

this same word can be, and most often is translated religion.. for witnesses, the matter of being the "one true religion" is all important.

pure and undefiled religion before god and the father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, to keep oneself unspotted from the world.. english revised version.

Disillusioned JW

In the Rutherford days the JWs said they were not a religion but instead were true worship. In the Rutherford days they said all religion is bad ("religion is a snare and a racket") and false. Later they began saying that they were a religion, the true religion, and that there is a distinction between false and true religion. There former view of religion probably influenced their NWT translation of James 1:27.

Page 104 -105 in Rutherford's book called "Religion" (copyright 1940) says "Again let the people be reminded that religion is a snare and a racket, originating with the Devil, the leader of the demons, and forced upon the people by the demons: the snare of the Devil, in which to catch the people, and the racket of the religious leaders to rob the people. All the practitioners of religion, and the adherents thereto, will find no place of safety or escape at Armageddon."

144

The New World Translation is a Mess

by Amazing in

jw
friends

the new world translation (nwt) contains thousands of serious errors.

the following regarding john 1:1, one of the most noteworthy verses to jehovah's witness and ex-jehovah's witnesses alike, provides a case example of how and why the nwt cannot be trusted.

there some few scholars that translate the word was "a god" or "a god" or "divine" but they are in the very low percentages.. in greek john 1:1 says: "en arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos.

Disillusioned JW

The New Testament writers in a few verses when quoting the OT where The Name (the name of YHWH/Yahweh in the Hebrew OT, but typically "the LORD" in the Greek manuscripts of the OT) appears were equating Jesus with "the LORD" (Yahweh). See Romans 10:9 -13 in the NWT (1984) and then read the interlinear literal translation of the Greek text in the WT's Kingdom Interlinear. Look at the cross references (in the 1984 NWT) for verse 13 to Joel 2:32 and Zephaniah 3:9. Those OT verses are where The Name YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah is used in the Hebrew Scriptures ("the LORD" in at least most copies of the Greek translation of those scriptures). Look at Acts 2:21 (NWT 1984) where it says "And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." Then look at the Kingdom Interlinear's literal interlinear translation and notice it says "the name of Lord" instead of Jehovah in that verse.

See also the website of https://www.tetragrammaton.org/ . Its author claims to have attended meetings at a Kingdom Hall of JWs on a weekly basis and that he has never been a JW (and thus never an apostate of the WT/JW religion). He is an evangelical Christian who has carefully examined the J (Jehovah) references in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

There is evidence that the earliest Christians originally thought of the heavenly Christ as originally an emanation of Yahweh (or as part of Yahweh) and thus they thought he could be called Yahweh and "the LORD" and thus also be worshiped and be considered God and be prayed to (see John 1:1, John 20:28, Acts 7:59,60 [note footnote in 1984 NWT regarding alternate reading for "made appeal" and see the Kingdom Interlinear's literal translation of Acts 7:59, 60]). See Colossians 1:17 in the KIT and note that the Greek text for that verse has no Greek word meaning "other". Note that NWT Bible editions printed from 2006 and later exclude the brackets around the word "other" and thus obscure the fact that the word "other" in the translation of that verse does not complete the sense of that verse, but rather alters its meaning.

See also Hebrews 1:1 - 14 and note that Jesus is being contrasted with the angels and thus being considered as not an angel and thus not the Archangel Michael. Notice that verse 6 (in the 1984 NWT) says "... let all God's angels do obeisance to him." Note that the footnote for that verse in the 1984 NWT Reference Bible says 'Or, "let ... worship." '. Compare the wording of the verse to the 1970 and earlier editions of the NWT; they say in the main text for Hebrews 1:6 the following '... And let all God's angels worship him." ' [See also the ASV and KJV Bibles for that verse.] In contrast the latest revision of the NWT (the 2013 Revision) in Hebrews 1:6 in the footnote for "do obeisance" doesn't give the alternate rendering of "worship .." but says "bow down" instead. [See https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/hebrews/1/#fn161259120 .] Step by step the WT in the translation of their NWT has diminished the significance of sayings in the Bible which ascribe worship to Jesus Christ.

Let me make clear, I don't believe/think that Jesus is the God or a god - I'm now an atheist and a philosophical naturalist - but I now think that parts of Bible do teach that Jesus is God (in some sense - in a much greater sense than the WT interpretation of "and the Word was a god") and that the earliest Christians thought of Jesus as God (in some sense - in a much greater sense than the WT interpretation of "and the Word was a god"). See the book by Earl Doherty called The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. See also Doherty's website at https://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/index.htm .

The earliest extant New Testament manuscripts didn't write out the name Jesus but used nomina sacra instead. Regarding nomina sacra see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra .

29

Newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls with the tetragrammaton within the Greek text

by dropoffyourkeylee in

big news from israel, some previously undiscovered dead sea scrolls have been found with portions of the ot in greek.

it says the name of god is included in hebrew letters within the greek text.. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/world/middleeast/dead-sea-scrolls.html.

"the new fragments contain verses from zechariah 8:16-17, including part of the name of god written in ancient hebrew, and verses from nahum 1:5-6, both from the biblical book of the twelve minor prophets.".

Disillusioned JW

The New Testament writers in a few verses when quoting the OT where The Name (the name of YHWH/Yahweh in the Hebrew OT, but typically "the LORD" in the Greek manuscripts of the OT) appears were equating Jesus with "the LORD" (Yahweh). See Romans 10:9 -13 in the NWT (1984) and then read the interlinear literal translation of the Greek text in the WT's Kingdom Interlinear. Look at the cross references (in the 1984 NWT) for verse 13 to Joel 2:32 and Zephaniah 3:9. Those OT verses are where The Name YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah is used in the Hebrew Scriptures ("the LORD" in at least most copies of the Greek translation of those scriptures). Look at Acts 2:21 (NWT 1984) where it says "And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." Then look at the Kingdom Interlinear's literal interlinear translation and notice it says "the name of Lord" instead of Jehovah in that verse.

See also the website of https://www.tetragrammaton.org/ . Its author claims to have attended meetings at a Kingdom Hall of JWs on a weekly basis and that he has never been a JW (and thus never an apostate of the WT/JW religion). He is an evangelical Christian who has carefully examined the J (Jehovah) references in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

There is evidence that the earliest Christians originally thought of the heavenly Christ as originally an emanation of Yahweh (or as part of Yahweh) and thus they thought he could be called Yahweh and "the LORD" and thus also be worshiped and be considered God and be prayed to (see John 1:1, John 20:28, Acts 7:59,60 [note footnote in 1984 NWT regarding alternate reading for "made appeal" and see the Kingdom Interlinear's literal translation of Acts 7:59, 60]). See Colossians 1:17 in the KIT and note that the Greek text for that verse has no Greek word meaning "other". Note that NWT Bible editions printed from 2006 and later exclude the brackets around the word "other" and thus obscure the fact that the word "other" in the translation of that verse does not complete the sense of that verse, but rather alters its meaning.

See also Hebrews 1:1 - 14 and note that Jesus is being contrasted with the angels and thus being considered as not an angel and thus not the Archangel Michael. Notice that verse 6 (in the 1984 NWT) says "... let all God's angels do obeisance to him." Note that the footnote for that verse in the 1984 NWT Reference Bible says 'Or, "let ... worship." '. Compare the wording of the verse to the 1970 and earlier editions of the NWT; they say in the main text for Hebrews 1:6 the following '... And let all God's angels worship him." ' [See also the ASV and KJV Bibles for that verse.] In contrast the latest revision of the NWT (the 2013 Revision) in Hebrews 1:6 in the footnote for "do obeisance" doesn't give the alternate rendering of "worship .." but says "bow down" instead. [See https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/hebrews/1/#fn161259120 .] Step by step the WT in the translation of their NWT has diminished the significance of sayings in the Bible which ascribe worship to Jesus Christ.

Let me make clear, I don't believe/think that Jesus is the God or a god - I'm now an atheist and a philosophical naturalist - but I now think that parts of Bible do teach that Jesus is God (in some sense - in a much greater sense than the WT interpretation of "and the Word was a god") and that the earliest Christians thought of Jesus as God (in some sense - in a much greater sense than the WT interpretation of "and the Word was a god"). See the book by Earl Doherty called The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. See also Doherty's website at https://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/index.htm .

Regarding "nomina sacra" see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra .

12

Good News Everyone!

by Anony Mous in

the non-profit organization behind the jehovah's witnesses in kraainem, belgium has been convicted of inciting discrimination and hatred or violence against former members who chose to leave the community.

the court in ghent has fined jehovah's witnesses eur 12,000 but due to the indexation adjustment, the actual payout to the victim will be (at this point) 8 times higher.

the multiplier seems weird to us, for those familiar with us law, the eur 12,000 is the statutory fine, taking into account the devaluation of currency, the court system sets an indexed multiplier for fines, currently at 8 - similar to how fines in the us were set in the 1800's at $100 would now be several thousands of dollars.. it is likely that the jehovah's witnesses will pursue this case to the european court.. according to the prosecutor, this case is therefore mainly about recognizing the malpractices within the community, not so much about sanctions: “in our opinion, this is a blatant violation of the discrimination law.

Disillusioned JW

That is great news. Yippie skippie!

People should get out of Watchtower the Great before its towers come tumbling down and before its walls collapse in upon all who dwell within its confines.

Bowls of litigation and wrath are being poured upon it from on high.

13

What do you think about NDE? Life after death?

by Mowgliandbalu in

please forgive if my english is a bit crooked :-) at least i understand quite well and i thank everyone here in the forum very much!

you were a big help for me within the last months.

i'm a born-in from germany, mid50, was 20 years elder, woke up a few years ago.

Disillusioned JW

The key thing to remember about NDE is the "N" - for "Near". They are called "Near Death Experiences" - not "After Death Experiences". Though many of the people were clinically dead for a period of time, it has not been proven (at least not to my satisfaction) that any of them were completely brain dead before reporting their experiences.

Hey Sea Breeze, another thing similar to the WT religion and atheistic naturalism is that when the WT writes about whether miracles (of a supernaturally caused nature, rather than being merely an amazingly rare happy event) happen in our time they usually (or maybe always??) say they do not happen in our time. At least, regarding gifts of the holy spirit they say that no longer takes place - including healing miracles. But the WT does say that demonic activity happens in our time. Now isn't that odd?

27

Jehovah's Witnesses can now VOTE!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

jehovah's witnesses were raped and tortured by the thousands in malawi because they obeyed the watchtower society's rules, and they broke caesar's law and refused to purchase a political card in a country that only had one polictical party.

now (since 1999), jehovah's witnesses are allowed to vote in political elections!

i would love to hear everyone's comments.

Disillusioned JW

Where I live all political voting has been by "vote by mail" only - and that has been the case for several years. Thus, where I live JWs and faded ex-JWs living alone can vote without any other JW ever knowing, provided the person voting is cautious. However there is one caveat. Anyone can obtain a copy of the voter registration list for where I live - including political party affiliation/membership (if any), though not including who and/or what the persons cast their votes for (since the ballots are private). It does however cost money to obtain the voter list.

137

Masks Are Coming Off

by minimus in

jw
friends

a number of states are allowing people to not wear a mask.

some think this is disastrous!

what’s your view?.

Disillusioned JW

Anony Mous, you asked good questions to me when you said "why should people who are immune have to continue to wear masks? Don’t you believe that the vaccines work?"

In making my earlier post about masks I hadn't given thought specifically to whether ones who were fully vaccinated should wear masks. Based upon what I have read and heard on the news the various Covid-19 vaccines work to various degrees of effectiveness. Furthermore there are new strains/variants of the virus and for some of those the vaccines don't seem to provide nearly as much protection. One concern that I have is that if someone in a store or on public transportation is not wearing a mask, what proof do I and others have that the person is vaccinated and/or immune to Covid-19. Unless the person provides documentation of having been vaccinated how can any of us really know the person is vaccinated and/or immune?

It seems to me that the guidance stated at https://www.nbcnews.com/shopping/wellness/cdc-guidelines-face-masks-n1260911 is worth considering.

Regarding whether the current Covid-19 vaccines are safe, I haven't yet made up my mind on that subject. I lean towards thinking they are safe, due to the medical community saying they are safe, but in researching how they are made I notice that most of them are mRNA type of vaccines. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html says the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines cause the human body cells to make a harmless protein piece and later to display it on the surface of the cells. The article says "Our immune systems recognize that the protein doesn’t belong there and begin building an immune response and making antibodies, like what happens in natural infection against COVID-19." My worry is that the immune systems of some of those receiving the vaccine might do more than attack the Covid-19 protein pieces, namely that they might also attack all of the body cells of some people which have the protein pieces on their surfaces - causing an autoimmune disease.

The article says "mRNA vaccines have been held to the same rigorous safety and effectiveness standards [332 KB, 24 pages]external icon as all other types of vaccines in the United States. The only COVID-19 vaccines the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) will make available for use in the United States (by approval or emergency use authorization) are those that meet these standards." But, I am still concerned.

17

"Modern Bibles" New World Translation - Part II

by Perry in

behold, the days come, saith the lord god, that i will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the lord .

amos 8: 11. .

most of us who have been raised as jehovahs witnesses since at least the 1960s were occasionally reminded of the scholarship of fred franz and his command of eight or more languages, including the biblical languages of hebrew and greek.

Disillusioned JW

I read online (I think it was somewhere on jehovahs-witness.com) that a non-JW critic of the NWT said the NWT was made as a revision of Rotherham's Emphasized Bible into smoother flowing contemporary English. If that is primarily the way the NWT was made, then I think that the NWT rests on a sound foundation and in a sense can be called a literal translation. That is because Rotherham's Emphasized Bible is a very literal translation of the Bible from critical texts. It even says Yahweh in the OT text instead of "the LORD" and it uses typography to distinguish when God/god is translated from Elohim, Eloah, and El. Thus using Rotherham's Emphasized Bible as a base, along with comparison with other translations and with various critical texts and with Hebrew-Aramaic-Greek lexicons, to make the NWT, could result in an excellent Bible that is worthy of being called a translation from ancient manuscripts of the Bible. Rotherham's Emphasized Bible also uses the word "presence" as a translation of "parousia" instead of "coming" and in one of the appendices of the Bible he states his reasons for doing such. Rotherham read Russell's "The Divine Plan of the Ages" and wrote a review on it. See http://www.biblestudentarchives.com/documents/RotherhamAppendix.pdf . Wikipedia says Rotherham was a "scholar and minister of the Churches of Christ".

I compared a number of verses of the OT of the NWT with that of the OT of Rotherham's Emphasized Bible and noticed that in those verses the NWT rendering does look much like an updating of the rendering of the Rotherham's Emphasized Bible into smoother flowing contemporary English. In those OT verses I examined the NWT wording was closer to that of Rotherham's Emphasized Bible than to that of the American Standard Version Bible.

It is also case that the NWT NT used some renderings from the Emphatic Diaglott's interlinear literal translation and it 'modern' English translation.

140

Why So Many Young People Are Leaving The Watchtower

by Jeremy C in

i have been giving a lot of thought to the young people who are leaving the watchtower organization in recent years.

last night, i was reading the thread posted by jwfacts a while back in which he provided some statistics and graphs showing the rapidly declining growth in the watchtower.

one factor that was discussed at length was the high number of young people who do not stay in the organization.

Disillusioned JW

A big part of the reason why I ended up avoiding literature critical of the WT's teachings and of the Bible while a teen and thus getting baptized, was that I placed too much credence on the idea of being obedient to what the Bible says, including obeying one's parents and avoiding apostate teachings. Obedience in many matters is important, but obedience is over rated. If I was less obedient (to what the WT said about the Bible), while living in my parent's house I would gone to the library to study pro evolution books and pro atheism books (if I could find the latter) to see if the WT religion (and even Christianity as a whole and even the Bible) is mostly false. It is unlikely I could have found any ex-JW literature back then in the libraries or elsewhere, but I could have at least tested the claims of the Bible. I did some research back then on evolution, the concept of Bible prophecies having been fulfilled, the existence of Jesus Christ as a historical person, and the correctness of WT interpretations of the Bible, but I only used WT sources for my study (other than a few science articles that commented on evolution; and what I read in my school's biology book while in the classroom [the biology teacher said students couldn't take the biology book home]). I didn't look up the quotes the WT made from secular sources; if I had, at least on the topic of evolution, it would have made a huge difference!

I was extremely bored attending the KH meetings and going out in FS but I did those activities (including while as an adult living on my own for several years) because I thought that was required of me by Jehovah God. I thus did what I thought was my duty, though I otherwise didn't want to do it.

140

Why So Many Young People Are Leaving The Watchtower

by Jeremy C in

i have been giving a lot of thought to the young people who are leaving the watchtower organization in recent years.

last night, i was reading the thread posted by jwfacts a while back in which he provided some statistics and graphs showing the rapidly declining growth in the watchtower.

one factor that was discussed at length was the high number of young people who do not stay in the organization.

Disillusioned JW

Jay Elle, I wish that when I was 10 - 13 years old that I had access to such information that your teen daughter had! When I was 13 years old there was no internet accessible to the general public - the Apple IIe computer and the IBM PC hadn't even been invented yet! [I didn't buy my first computer (it was an 8-bit computer) and modem card (for connection to other computers by telnet - there was no internet browser and world wide web back then) until the latter half of my time in college.] If I had the information readily available back then (when I was younger than age 14) that people have today I very probably would never have become baptized as a JW!

People like daughter (when you made you post 6 years ago) are what we need in the KHs today educating the other unbaptized youth in the KH so they don't ever get baptized into the JW religion!